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(Total activity, all pages, all sites, in page reloads, since 9/21/2000)
(12-11-98)
In the 1800's a Unitarian Bishop, named Ullathorpe... wrote.. "Although God is everywhere present,.. He is not everywhere accessible.. but only within the depths of the heart..." , this was quoted by a Japanese prof. of American Literature in a book on Zen and the Trancendentalist American authors like Thoreau and Dickens...etc
proud_catholic.... are you often attacked or criticized by protestants.. with your screen name... just curious
one of my hobbies... sort of.. is coming into christian chat... and asking certain questions.... one of which is "Is the Pope a Christian".... another is "Is Bill Clinton a Christian".. a third (with some VERY INTERESTING replies) "Is BILLY GRAHAM a Christian"
the various answers and reasons I receive more or less demonstrate.. to me anyway... that the generic term CHRISTIAN is sort of a fiction.. and real unity or love is none existant
its not important how I DEFINE CHRISTIAN... what is significant is that those who PROFESS to be christian really have no viable definition.. or agreement
as far as im concerned ... if a man tells me he is a Christian... thats good enought for me.... same if he says "im buddhist" or "im Muslim"...or "im a Jew"
it is interesting to note.. that the Roman Catholics are THE LARGEST single christian denomination..numerically.. and have the GREATEST DEGREE of unity of belief and doctrine... (barring the phenomenon of CAFETERIA CATHOLICS)
but... im just trying to make some interesting conversation.. to accompany my morning coffee....
ok suzi... but is the Pope of Romes confession within scriptural outline... in your estimation.. is the Pope of Rome saved???
im asking suzi.. now.. not anyone else
well.. I would like to know what it means to say.. "within scriptural outline"....
you see.. many people toss out such terms.. but.. when you investigate.. and question....
suzi says... I cant judge who is and is not a Christian
aha.. but your reluctance to answer... is a BIG ANSWER in itself...
you see my point... I hope
many christians talk like its so simple... just profess Jesus as your PERSONAL SAVIOUR (and id really like to know what an IMPERSONAL saviour might be)... and your SAVED SAVED SAVED... sounds real simple.. right.. YET surely the Pope of Rome does that.. but then people say... "Oh.. its not for me to judge who is and isnt christian"... when you press them with questions
yet Jesus said.... "Wherever TWO OR THREE are gathered IN MY NAME"... seems to suggest that it is imperative for you to identify fellow christians.. otherwise how are you gonna get those TWO OR THREE to gather...and Jesus doesnt say DIDDLY about "withing scriptural outlines" or anything else... just "in my name"
of course... crazee.. I would tend to agree.. but you and I both know that many "christians".. and even tv evangilists have talked that way... they even have match book cover post cards with a box to check and mail in... "on this day I accept Jesus etc etc"
(suzi says... I know other christians to be christian because I know their faith and practice)
but when you say..."i know their faith and practice"... doesnt that imply that you have "JUDGED" them... like the Pharisee in the Temple... and isnt such judgement against the words of Christ???
im gonna scroll back and see what I missed while I was typing... its hard to type and read
I tend to doubt that the statement "IM SAVED" which christians so often utter... has any real scriptural foundation... in the New Testament... it implies that they can never backslide or apostasize.. but that would mean that the parable about the SOWER OF SEEDS.. Jesus parable.. where some seeds never sprout... some sprout but never take root.. some take root IN SHALLOW SAND..and are blown away.. then that parable would have no meaning... if it were correct to say "I AM SAVED"...
plus notions such as "I am Saved"... deny the concept that "the judgement of God is a Mystery for man"... it is robbing God of His Sovereignty... it seems to me...
you actually dont mind me being in the room... the things that I say???
some people REALLY DISLIKE what I say.. and MIND A WHOLE LOT.. although that is not why I say it...
well.. that is very openminded.. thank you for listening.. I do not think my questions are easy ones to answer.. but I think they are important ones for people to answer for themselves
you know.. a thought just came to me.. which I dont think ive ever really expressed before.. although it is really very obvious....
simply.. that in the new testament... if you consider the words of Jesus..and of Paul... I dont think there is anything to indicate that they ever envisioned...or condoned... the notion of 1500 different sects or denominations.. of "Christian Churches"... not in communion with one another.. and not confessing one single creed...
well. suzi.. this.."i would rather do my own thing" attitude... must be part of the problem.. leading to those "1500 different denominations" wouldnt you think...
yes... actually .. last month I was thinking about Tower of Bable.. and Denominational diversity as a modern Tower of Babel... sort of by Gods will... to ensure humility....
Jesus does say... "Blessed are you when people shall say all manner of evil against you FALSELY for my sake..."... well Catholics get that from certain Protestants... and Protestants get that ... in a subtle way.... from offical Catholic church doctrine.... it is an interesting concept...
noo.. I have spent my life studying church history.. there is not time when true unity existed... not during the 7 ecumenical councils.. not even in the time of St. Paul.. if you read the epistles carefully... does not St. Paul complain how some declare "I am of Peter"..."I am of Paul"... etc etc etc
of.. course.. if one takes that concept one step further... if God is actually present in EVERY RELIGION... and patiently accepts all forms of prayer and worship.... but that is already no longer a truly christian concept...
sorry if I dont read every posting while I type... redundancy is not my intention...
well.. in a sense... the Church dates from the miracle of Pentacost.. and the tongues of fire of the Holy Spirit....
how does who feel about gays?
doesnt it say though... "he who sins in one point of the law... is guilty of the whole law".. and "he who lusts in his mind... is already guilty "... and "all have sinned.. and fallen short of the glory..".... and yet there are other verses which say... "drunkards.. and effeminates.. and etc etc.. shal not enter the kinddom"....
what .. you leaving Proud?
well.. on the one hand there are verses which make it seem like... one sin is as bad as any other.. and all have sinned.... but.. other verses indicate that certain sins definitely exclude one from heaven....
pride and anger and sloth and greed are also abominations to God...
and even if we are following Jesus.. we are still fairly abominable...
there arent many Mother Theresas in the world....at any given time
and im sure she had her problems
(someone asks.. "what does Mother Theresa have to do with any of this...?)
if you have to ask that.. its not worth the waste of breath explaining
I am fond of the passage which describes how prophet Samuel went to Jesse to choose a King.. and God rejected all Samuels choices... until David ..the least.. was presented.. and the verse says...something like..."Man judges from exterior things... but God .. the knower of mens hearts.. judges differently.."... and yet David went on to lust for Bathsheba.. and murder Uriah....
there is some irony to the fact that the two people in the room with the most pagan sounding names.. are making some of the most "christian" sounding... and compassionate..and tolerant statements....
(Snag says paradise means GARDEN when Jesus says to the Theif.. today thou shalt be with me in Paradise)
oh.. very interesting.. but... then.. why didnt jesus say that to THE OTHER THEIF..since they would all be there...
obviously.. snag.. you have a vested interest.. as many do.. in clinging tenaciously to some particular belief.. at any cost.. so.. what can I say
and.. of course.. that is your right and priviledge
well.. each group.. the mormons.. the roman catholics.. the lutherans.. the jehovahs witnesses.. they all base their beliefs stricly on scripture.. and all are convinced in their heart of hearts that they are absolutely right..
in a certain way... its pointless to cite scriptural authority.. since over 2000 years.. so many diverse and conflicting beliefs have been "proven" by various verses...
actually.. Hindus are more or less forced (required ) to believe that Jesus is a God-Man incarnation.. by certan verses in the Gita... which say that God will Incarnate periodically as human.. in different times and places...
so.. its not unusual.. in a sermon..in a hindu temple.. to hear the priest say..."Lord Jesus..."...
(Do Hindus believe that Jesus existed?)
but.. of course.. Hindus are disqualified from being Christians.. because they believe that the Incarnation has happened more than once...
hmmmm... im not aware of any type of prophetic mention of Jesus per se in one of the ancient Hindu Scriptures... although.. there is a prophecy of a 10th incarnation called Kalki.. coming on a white horse.. with a sword.. before the end of the world...
which strikingly resembles the passage in Book of Revelations... the White Horse... "faithful and true".. the sword.. all of that
there is fairly undeniable archeological and historical evidence that most of the Hindu scriptures are older.. and predate Christian.. and even Old testament...
but of course.. the truth of the matter is.. that for most christians.. even if Krishna, and Vishnu, and Shiva,,, and the whole crowd.. came marching down the street with a 76 trombone band... the christians would be required to cover their heads and says... "this is demonic deception"... so... what is the real point of arguing or discussing at length...
if you are genuinely curious.. I can give you the URL for a time=line which places various scriptures.. and events of judaism.. xtianity. hindu.. buddhist jain...
http://www.cs.colostate.edu/~malaiya/jainhout1.html
actually.. that time line.. url.. is rather interesting.. and useful...
I Corinthians 9:22 To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some. hmmm.... that is another passage which demonstrates that only a very few are saved.....
Romans 8:26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. ... THESE are the words of PAUL.. AND I would really take them with a grain of salt... Paul is a self admitted rhetorecian... who believes that the end justifies the means...
but in any event.. this is the only passage in the whole bible which refers to such groaning.. and if it is true.. about the holy spirit.. it is obviously not groaning which is ment for humans to hear....
its funny in one passage St. Paul says.. We should therefore Pray at all times... (i.e. without ceasing).. but in another passage.. No one knows how to pray.. so the Holy Spirit Prays for us... but yet... Jesus says.. Your Heavenly Father ALREADY KNOWS.. what you need... before you ask it.... yet in the Psalms.... "Let the lifting up of my hands be as an evening sacrifice"... which Rabbinical tradition interprets as "prayer in preparation for PRAYER"
The most powerful disproof of Christianity.. are the very words of Jesus himself .. in His prayer in the Garden of Gesthemene "Heavenly Father.. all those whom Thou has given to me.. may they be ONE.. even as You and I are One.."... one never EVER sees that unity come to pass.. that Christian Unity and Oneness.. not during the first 800 yrs of the 7 Ecumenical councils.. nor in the Middle Ages... nor especially NOW
no one can prove the truth or falsehood of Jesus.. or Vishnu.. or Mohammed... or the Torah... or Buddha.. or any other religion... and we are all free to embrace whatever faith we like... or to be atheists or agnostics for that matter
its utter pride and audacity for anyone to claim a corner on truth.. and expect the rest of humanity to conform to it.. under threat of eternal torture for refusing...
well.. its no more presumptuous of me.. to say what I say.. than of the Christians who say what they say.. and not once do I threaten you with anything ... for not agreeing with me.. yet you threaten me with ETERNAL TORMENT.. for not agreeing with you...
NO ONE IS THREATENING ME!!!!... just go read some of the long christian hindu dialogues at my website which I have had with various missionaries... cut and pasted which no modifications.. and you will see THREAT AFTER THREAT AFTER THREAT of eternal torture... common.. at least TRY to be honest... PUHLEEEEZZZZZ
At least try to maintain some small modicum of dignity and self respect.. even if YOU HAVE TO PRETEND.. just for appearances sake!!!!
well.. if you really want the truth.. hindus believe God is One.. with a Trinity of three aspects.. just like Christians.. but furthermore that God is so Powerful that He/She/It can manifest simultaneously as any number of forms.. and also be formless..... but then you probably wont believe me.. but.. the vision of Prophet Ezekiel.. the flying Chariot.. is a very Hindu vision of God..
and... furthermore.. the third hebrew word in Genesis.. ELOHIM.. is a PLURAL word.. just like CHEROUBIM and SERAPHIM.... and denotes GOD...
why do you feel threatened by my beliefs.. anyway.. do they make your beliefs less true to you????
ive really said about all I have to say.. and those few people who find the sorts of things I say interesting.. have already visited my website.... and the rest.. well.. they are interested in other things... its really non of my concern which religion any given individual adopts.. or whether they adopt any... for that matter.. most people do as they please.. and look for like minded people to surround themselves with..
most Christians frankly and openly say... "Nothing that anyone can say or do.. will make me abandon my beliefs ...".... right.. isnt that correct.??? so what is the point of arguing with any Christian...???
i most certainly am not trying to change anyone.. in fact if you read my entire website.. you will find a dialogue were I encourage someone depressed over their guil-trip Baptist upbringing.. to convert to the Episcopal church
Sd2: www.indias.com or www.kerala.com there is also a chat there SITARAM: oh.. looks interesting
Hindu theology perceives Heaven and Hell to be as much a part of Duality.. as Truth/Falsehood.... Good/Evil... Pleasure/Pain... Being/Non-Existence.... and the pleasures and delights of Heaven and the desire for them are as much bondage and spiritual impediments.. as any number of other things which constitute spiritual impediments...
(someone says.. What do you think Satans goal in the world is")
look.. what can I answer to that question.. hinduism doesnt believe in a satan figure.... how can we have dialogue on that???
what can I say.. from a Hindu perspective.. God is the source of all things... good and evil as we perceive it is Illusion... God is a Good which transcends good and evil.... a Truth which transcends truth and falsehood.... an Everlasting... which transcendings time/eternity/being/non-being .... infact the very SOURCE of being and non-being.... what can I say..??
i just dont care to worship God.. as the west perceives God to be.. I feel it would compromise my basic human dignity.. and I would prefer eternal torment at the hands of such a god.. than to worship it for the paultry pleasures of such a god's paradise....
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